"We discovered Ellen White failed the Biblical tests of a prophet"

  Honest Answers
  for Real People
Main Menu Search

Samuele Bacchiocchi Fires Back

Dr. Bacchiocchi's Response to our Article

And Three Selected Responses to Dr. Bacchiocchi's Response


Editor's Note: Below is Dr. Bacchiocchi's e-mail response, received Sep. 2, 2002, entitled "Protest about the misuse of my newsletter."

Dear Deceiver:

It has been brought to my attention that you have excerpted material from my newsletter No. 87 and used it in your defamation campaign against Ellen White. Your arbitrary selection of my material, without explaining my position regarding the limitations of the gift of prophecy in the NT, is pure deception. It is evident that the Evil One has corrupted your mind and is using you as an instrument of evil, that is, to act as a bulldozer, rather than a builder of God's Kingdom.

Frankly, I have no respect for people like you who spent their life collecting and distributing garbage. If only you could accomplish 1% of all the contributions that Ellen White has made and is still making to the spiritual enrichment of millions of people around the world, you would have reasons to thank God for your ministry. Instead, you have reasons to grieve for serving the cause of the Evil One, in attacking the immeasurable contributions of the prophetic ministry of Ellen White.

Your attempt to discredit Ellen White on the basis of her uses of sources or inaccuracies found her writing, reveals your ignorance of the nature of the prophetic gift. The messages of the prophets are to be examined for their accuracy, Several times Paul speaks of evaluating Christian prophecy (1 Thess 5:19-22; 1 Cor 12:10; 14:29). The human limitations and inaccuracies in the prophetic messages seem to have been so apparent, that some Christians despised them, like you do. But, in 1 Thessalonians 5:20-21 Paul warns the congregation against rejecting them: "Do not despise prophesying, but test everything; hold fast what is good."10 The admonition to test the messages of the prophets, and retain what is good, suggests that their messages were a mixed bag, with positive and negative elements.

The same admonition to carefully evaluate the speech of the prophets is given in 1 Corinthians 14:29: "Let two or three prophets speak, and the others weigh what is said." The implication of the Greek word diakrino, here translated "weigh what is said," is that members were to listen critically, sifting the good from the bad. The fact that prophets sometimes may say or write inaccurate things, does not make them false prophets. Please note that the admonition is to "hold fast what is good," not to reject everything as you do.

Experience has taught me that ignorant people like you are the most arrogant. The reason is simple: Ignorance breeds arrogance. You are a perfect example of this phenomenon.

Please do me a favor. Post in your website my response to your arbitrary use of my material so that all your readers will know that you arrogant defamation of Ellen White is the fruit of your ignorance of the prophetic gift-ignorance which the Evil One is using to make you an arrogant deceiver and an instrument of his destructive cause.

Christian regards

Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D.,
Retired Professor of Theology and Church History, Andrews University
4990 Appian Way
Berrien Springs, MI 49103

Phone (616) 471-2915 Fax (616) 471-4013

E-mail sbacchiocchi@qtm.net
samuele@andrews.edu

WWW HOMEPAGE: http://www.biblicalperspectives.com

The NEW WEB SITE offer you over 3000 pages from the 16 books and over 100 essays that I have authored. Feel free to visit and use my library.

Response #1: Dirk Anderson, editor, ellenwhite.org

E-mailed to Dr. Bacchiocchi on Sept. 8, 2002

Dear Dr. Bacchiocchi,

Our web site deals with facts and evidence, not personal opinions. We used seven quotes from your newsletter where you dealt with facts and evidence. The greater portion of your newsletter was your opinions and rationalizations regarding how Ellen White could make mistakes and still be a prophet. That may be of interest to your newsletter readers, but it is of little interest to our readers.

The real issue with Ellen White is not whether or not she made a mistake here or there, but whether or not she passed the Biblical tests of a prophet. We have substantial evidence and facts proving she failed five of the six Biblical tests. If this is true, then who is the real deceiver? You or me?

I would like to challenge you to an internet debate on whether Mrs. White passed or failed the tests of a prophet. Let us get the issues out in the open and see who is the real deceiver.

Finally, we would not think of posting your e-mail on our web site as it might lead many people to question whether or not you have a Christian experience. If you can craft an e-mail response in a Christian spirit, we will consider posting it.

God bless,

Dirk Anderson


Note: Dr. Bacchiocchi replied to the above e-mail insisting that I post his e-mail. I was reluctant to do this, as I felt Dr. Bacchiocchi had written his e-mail out of anger and emotion and it did not rightly represent his true character. However, at his insistence, I agreed to post it, and you can draw your own conclusions. Dr. Bacchiocchi declined our challenge to a debate on whether Ellen White passed the tests of a prophet. That in itself speaks volumes, doesn't it?

Response #2: Robert Sanders, editor, TruthorFables.com

Dear Deceiver:

Dr. B, when did God die and leave you in charge of judgment? There are two things certain in life. One there is a God, and you are not him!

Is a deceiver one that upholds a false prophet's Bible contradictions over the Word of God and calls it inspired? This is exactly what you are doing. Jesus tells us to get the logjam out of our eyes before judging others. You will need to take off your EGW glasses so that you can see the true Word of God before judging others.

It has been brought to my attention that you have excerpted material from my newsletter No. 87 and used it in your defamation campaign against Ellen White. Your arbitrary selection of my material, without explaining my position regarding the limitations of the gift of prophecy in the NT, is pure deception. It is evident that the Evil One has corrupted your mind and is using you as an instrument of evil, that is, to act as a bulldozer, rather than a builder of God's Kingdom.

SDAs have a history of using EGW's writing to corrupt the minds of Christians. You are using one of the SDAs patent sayings with people that disagree with EGW/SDAs "that they are being led by the Evil One".

The only thing that is "evident" is the fact you follow the teachings of a false prophet instead of the pure Word of God. You cannot serve two masters. It is evident that EGW is your master.

Frankly, I have no respect for people like you who spent their life collecting and distributing garbage.

I have no respect for people who knowingly promote a false prophet. SDAs have been promoting EGW's "Spirit of Nonsense" (GARBAGE) now since about 1845 WHICH IS ABOUT 150 years. How can you have respect for the SDA Church whose main focus is distributing EGW's books and teachings that contradict the Bible?

If only you could accomplish 1% of all the contributions that Ellen White has made and is still making to the spiritual enrichment of millions of people around the world, you would have reasons to thank God for your ministry.

My ministry points people to Christ and his word. Your ministry points people to the non-Biblical teachings of EGW. Yes, I have reasons to thank God, for all the people that have had their eyes opened and have been freed from EGW's bondage. Corrupting minds with the myths of EGW is not "spiritual enrichment".

Instead, you have reasons to grieve for serving the cause of the Evil One, in attacking the immeasurable contributions of the prophetic ministry of Ellen White.

Here are some the "immeasurable" contributions of EGW. Here is a short list of her garbage:

  • The Sabbath is the Seal of God for Christians. Not so, it is the Holy Spirit.
  • Sunday keepers will receive the MARK OF THE BEAST. Not so.
  • SDA Church is God's "Remnant Church." Not Biblical. No denomination is called the Remnant.
  • Investigative Judgment began in 1844. Most all SDA Scholars know this is a joke.
  • You can get leprosy from eating swine. Not so. Pigs cannot get leprosy. Ha!
  • God wants his people to be vegetarians and follow EGW's health reform which is part of the "Three Angels Message". Not Biblical.

Thank God EGW's contributions are limited to the SDA Church and not the Christian world. Her teachings have screwed up the minds of the SDA people so that they cannot see her perversion of Bible texts because of the wild "I saw" and "I was shown" hogwash.

Your attempt to discredit Ellen White on the basis of her uses of sources or inaccuracies found her writing, reveals your ignorance of the nature of the prophetic gift.

When EGW tells us her words were given to her by God and then she steals the words from her over 1200 book library was she truthful? She was a liar and you support this liar. What Bible prophet made a living selling their writings and visions AND lying about their sources? How is it that us "ignorant people" can see it, but the ones with University degrees are blind as bats?

The messages of the prophets are to be examined for their accuracy, Several times Paul speaks of evaluating Christian prophecy (1 Thess 5:19-22; 1 Cor 12:10; 14:29).

We can agree with Paul. When EGW is put to the test, she fell flat on her face with non-Biblical doctrines and non-Scientific health reform garbage. Jesus is the last day prophet.

Did E.G. White Claim to Be Equal to the Prophet and Apostles? Yes.

EGW: “In ancient times God spoke to men by the mouth of prophets and apostles. In these days He speaks to them by the testimonies of His Spirit. There never was a time when God instructed His people more earnestly then He instructs them now concerning His will and the course that He would have them pursue.” Testimonies 4 p. 147 and in Testimonies 5 p. 661 (1876)

Bible: “In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.” (Heb 1:1,2 NIV)

Jesus will speak to men in the last days and E.G. White says it is the Testimonies of His Spirit. Which do you believe? Was this instruction to a small group of SDA’s in 1876 more earnest than when God instructed Israel by the prophets, or people of the world by Noah and more earnest than the teaching of Jesus when he was on earth or was it E.G. White’s vivid and colorful imagination? Here EGW gives herself a promotion, that her work is “more earnest” than that of the prophets, apostles and that of Jesus. Is this not infallibility?

The human limitations and inaccuracies in the prophetic messages seem to have been so apparent, that some Christians despised them, like you do.

I do not despise prophets of God or their message. There has been no known true prophets since the Apostolic Church. The mid 1800s spawned a rash of these nut cases. There was Joseph Smith of the LDS, Charles Taze Russell associate of the Millerites and founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mary Baker Eddy founder of the Christian Scientist, EGW founder of Adventists, etc. All fanatics.

But, in 1 Thessalonians 5:20-21 Paul warns the congregation against rejecting them: "Do not despise prophesying, but test everything; hold fast what is good."10 The admonition to test the messages of the prophets, and retain what is good, suggests that their messages were a mixed bag, with positive and negative elements.

Paul is not suggesting that true prophets have a "mixed bag" of true and false teachings. It is you Dr. B, that is suggesting this in order to prop up your prophet's gross mistakes.

Paul is saying after testing the prophets hold to the good teachings they are teaching you. If the prophet is proven to be false you can still hold on to the good. We can do the same with the false prophet EGW. When she quotes scripture we can agree with the text, but not when she perverts the text or read into the text what is not there. We still hold to the good. We then have "contempt" for the false teachings and false prophets and hold to the good that we know to be true.

Dr. B, if you think Bible prophets have a mixed bag of truth and error, how can you tell what is true and what is false in the Bible? If you approach the Bible in this manner, do you accept the fact that Jesus is the Son of God and Savior of the World. Perhaps the prophets were lying to you!

The same admonition to carefully evaluate the speech of the prophets is given in 1 Corinthians 14:29: "Let two or three prophets speak, and the others weigh what is said." The implication of the Greek word diakrino, here translated "weigh what is said," is that members were to listen critically, sifting the good from the bad. The fact that prophets sometimes may say or write inaccurate things, does not make them false prophets. Please note that the admonition is to "hold fast what is good," not to reject everything as you do.

Yes, the members were to listen to the prophets and judge or weigh what is said. This is the only way to tell if they are a true prophet.

Do prophets writing under inspiration really write "inaccurate things". It has been shown that what is seen as inaccuracies in the Bible has been made by copies of the ancient manuscripts and not the prophets themselves.

Experience has taught me that ignorant people like you are the most arrogant. The reason is simple: Ignorance breeds arrogance. You are a perfect example of this phenomenon.

Again did God die and make you judge! If ignorance breeds arrogance, then you seem to be well bred. Having a degree in theology does not make a person Biblically intelligent. Dr. B, you really ought not to through stones.

Please do me a favor. Post in your website my response to your arbitrary use of my material so that all your readers will know that you arrogant defamation of Ellen White is the fruit of your ignorance of the prophetic gift-ignorance which the Evil One is using to make you an arrogant deceiver and an instrument of his destructive cause.

I follow the Word of God to find my duty, and you Dr. B, follow the ravings of a religious fanatic that contradicts the Word.

I have a Bible that is about a 1-1/2 inches thick and can find my duty towards God as most Christians do. I do not need six feet of EGW books that contradict the Bible.

Cult members need a source outside the Bible to teach them what the Bible means such as The Book of Mormon, The Watchtower, etc. EGW's Testimonies is the Adventist Crutch to interpret the Bible. Shame!

Ellen White is a false prophet. She had failed visions and contradicted the Bible. She was a health reform hypocrite, as she ate meat and oysters most all her life and condemned others for doing the same. She was a liar as she said her words came from God and they came from uninspired authors. She was a thief as she stole those words without giving credit to those authors.

You should know what Jesus says about false prophets, hypocrites, thieves, liars and those that support them.

EGW is a false prophet. Now Dr. B, DEAL WITH IT!

God bless,

Robert K. Sanders

Visit Truth or Fables at: http://www.truthorfables.com
Exposing Seventh-day Adventist Fables

John 17:17 (NIV) "Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth."

Response #3: Max Chugg, Australia

Dirk:

I have just read, with amazement, the outburst that you received from Dr. Bacchiocchi, particularly when he concluded his judgmental tirade with the words "Christian regards"

He commences by calling you a deceiver. The Oxford Dictionary says of deceive that it is: "to ensnare; to catch by craft; to overreach; to mislead; to cause to believe what is false; to lead into error." I am at a total loss to understand how you can be accused of any of these things. Since I first came into contact with your site I have NEVER taken your word for anything, and always checked out your statements to the best of my ability. On three occasions I have raised objections to things I have read on what Dr. B. would call anti-EGW sites because of the critical view I take of all such articles.

If you are a deceiver, then so is Arthur Patrick. Patrick confirms the accuracy of many of the charges levied against Mrs. White, but then goes on to attempt to defend the indefensible. A lie is always a lie, deceit is always deceit. What I found interesting about Arthur Patrick was the comment he made about a former champion of EGW, Francis Nichol. I think the comment was that Nichol's defence of EGW now is woefully inadequate.

In my view, the worst aspects of Dr. B's tirade against you was the claim that "ignorant people like you are the most arrogant" and "ignorance breeds arrogance." As I found Dr. B to be completely arrogant, by his own judgment, he is ignorant. You are criticised for failing to understand his "position regarding the limitations of the gift of prophecy in the NT". The obvious question is "since when has Dr. B. been the final arbiter on the legitimacy or otherwise of prophecy?" To suggest that he has this authority is the height of arrogance as far as I am concerned.

As it progresses, the argument becomes even sillier. You are given all sorts of advice about how to deal with prophecy, which you must examine, and sift the good from the bad. The problem with this argument, and the texts given to support it, is that it has skipped ahead of the first scriptural requirement that you must test the prophet before you even consider the prophecies that he made. If the prophet fails the test, he is to be rejected, along with everything he has to say, and your attitude towards EGW is supported by scripture, if not by Dr. B.

To suggest that a prophet of God will give a message that contains both truth and error, which must be separated, is simply nonsense.

Return to the Oxford Dictionary's definition of a deceiver. Part of the definition was to "cause to believe what is false; to lead into error." Consider Mrs. White's account of the Israel Dammon affair, as compared with the newspaper report of the event. Does that not make her a deceiver?

In 1869 Mrs. White wrote "I have not changed my course a particle since I adopted the health reform. I have not taken one step back since the light from heaven upon this subject first shone on my pathway. I broke away from everything at once, from meat and butter, and from three meals...I left off these things from principle. I took my stand on health reform from principle." Testimonies, Vol. 2, pp. 371 - 372. As we now know that when she wrote these words they were totally untrue, was this not deceit?

Mrs. White had a devastating influence upon the earlier Adventists such as Kellogg, Jones, Canright and even members of her own family such as Franklin Belden. But what about non-Adventists? Consider what Harriet Austin had to say to H.E. Carver about one of the more prominent visitors to the institution operated by Dr. Jackson: "What motive has induced Elder and Mrs. White to make such reports as you mention, and which I had before heard they were making, I know not; but if in their so called divine revelations they do not get nearer to the truth than they have in the statements in regard to the dress I wear, they never will lead any soul to Heaven, but rather towards the darkness."

Prophets should be chosen with care. Revelation 20:10 is quite clear on the fate of the false prophet, and Rev. 22:15 says that amongst those outside are those who love and make a lie. The innumerable failures of his prophet do not allow Dr. B. to accuse others of allowing the Evil One to corrupt their minds. At present he appears to be attributing his own personal weaknesses to others.

If Dr. Bacchiocchi is as firm a believer in the testimonies of Mrs. White, he must believe the following quotes from his prophet:

"If you lessen the confidence of God's people in the testimonies He has sent, then you are rebelling against God, as were Korah, Dathan and Abiram" Testimonies Vol. 5, p. 66 She continues "In these letters which I write, in the testimonies I bear, I am presenting to you that which the Lord has presented to me. I do not write one article in the paper expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision - the precious rays of light shining from the throne. It is true concerning the articles in our papers and in the many volumes of my books."

Despite Mrs. White's claims that everything she writes comes directly from God, you gave five examples of what appeared to be solid disagreement between Dr. Bacchiocchi and Mrs. White:

  1. Mrs. White said that the years of papal supremacy began in 538 A.D., Dr. Bacchiocchi says that papal supremacy began in the second century.
  2. Mrs. White says that papal supremacy ended in 1798, Dr. Bacchiocchi says that in that year the papacy suffered a "temporary humiliation."
  3. Mrs. White says the Sabbath was changed to Sunday on the authority of the Pope, working in conjunction with the civil authorities. The SDA church has also maintained this argument vigorously until recently - for example, refer to the H.M.S. Richards helps in the backs of old SDA Bibles. Dr. Bacchiocchi says that the Pope made the change alone, without the support of the state.
  4. Mrs. White refers to vast councils pressing down the Sabbath and exalting Sunday. Bacchiocchi disagrees with this statement.
  5. Mrs. White says the Waldenses observed the Sabbath, Bacchiocchi disagrees.

If Mrs. White's claim that everything she wrote was not her idea, but a message from God, then Dr. Bacchiocchi's contradictions of his prophet are wrong, despite the amount of study he has done and the qualifications he has obtained. His own prophet puts him in the same category as Korah, Dathan and Abiram and he is irrelevant. She condemned others for much, much less!

If Dr. Bacchiocchi is right and Mrs. White is wrong, then Mrs. White is a false prophet, and she is irrelevant.

The only remaining consideration is that some of Mrs. White's writings are inspired and some are not. In this situation she is unique as a prophet, and also useless, because the question arises as to how her believers separate the messages from Heaven from personal opinion. The other problem that makes nonsense of this position is that it makes a liar of her because she clearly stated that EVERYTHING she wrote comes from God. There is absolutely no possibility that God would choose a liar for a prophet, so in the end we must decide who is right, White, Bacchiocchi, or neither.


About  | Links  | Contribute 
www.nonsda.org www.amazingfiction.org www.cog7.org

All material on this web site is copyrighted © 2009,2018 by nonegw.org